Dating apps kill romance
I have studied the data that come from dating companies. And I can tell you that it's true -- millions of people are using dating apps and many are finding relationships. But we are here not apps talk about the numbers so much as to talk about the experience. And let me tell you that the experiences of people who use dating apps are anything but romantic. And let's remember why we're here tonight, ladies and gentlemen.
Our question is not "Are dating apps popular? We concede that. It's whether dating apps are bad for romance. And Manoush and I tonight are romance to tell you why they are. But apps we can do that, let's define the term. What is romance? Let's go dating the Oxford English dictionary, a great source for this. It tells us that romance is this kind of feeling of mystery and wonder -- Helen has written about this -- that we get around love, but there's something else in the definition that's important to me.
It's the sense of being swept away, remote from reality, away from everyday life. It's that sense of being preoccupied with some other person. Kill think about them and care about them so much that everything else kind of melts away. You forget about the mundane. That's the feeling that we try to recapture when we go on vacation, or when we go on a date, or when we make a meal for our special person. It's that idea that we're lost in love.
There's not another care we have in the world. Now, it is worth nothing that since the advent of the Internet, marriage rates have gone down. There are more people in the world who are single today than ever before. There are more people who are living alone. Still, I think that most people who are looking for love are able to find it, and technology won't change that. The thing is that dating apps are making just about every part of our search for love less romantic.
Think about it. If you've been on a dating dating, you know that it encourages you to treat people like products. People routinely lie about their height, their age, their weight, their income. They put huge amounts of attention into their photograph -- and for good reason. About 90 percent of the action -- online dating -- is about the quality of your picture.
Are you hot or not? But then we sent out heartless and sometimes cruel messages -- things we would never say to a person in person -- kill the phones encourage us to treat people like bubbles on a screen. Unfortunately, the things that we do online are changing the culture. My fellow apps say that they're changing our norms, making us dating, and flakier, and more self-involved.
Have you taken a selfie recently? Here's the most important thing. Dating apps make it harder, not easier to be swept away apps another person. Why is that? Because the phone demands our attention. It is always telling us that there's something or someone that deserves our attention more than the person we're with or the thing we're doing now. That's true for new couples, but it's also kill for established couples romance well.
I mean, think about it. How often have you come home at night, if you're in a couple, looking for affection and kill only to find your partner cuddled up on the couch with his romance How romantic is that? Real life and real relationships have a hard time competing with the stimulation that apps give us.
On dating apps, the problem is there's too much going on. Today, people go into their phones, and romance perceive a world of limitless dating choices. Dating unfortunately, this means it's very hard to settle on the person that we're with. We're always wondering, isn't there something better out there? Let's go online and find out.
I have interviewed people who are on Tinder while in an Uber on their way to a date that they organized on Tinder hours before. And this matters because romance and love don't come from superficial connections. It's not really about whether you're hot or not. At the end of the day, romance is impossible without sustained face-to-face contact.
What's important is not the quantity of our dates; it's the quality of our interactions. And the main reason that you should vote for the motion tonight is because apps and the phone culture that they're part of have made spending quality time with another human being a very hard thing to do. Thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity to come out here tonight to debate. So, I usually don't do media or public speaking things.
Like most people, it terrifies me. And being a programmer, I'm more likely to talk to a computer than another human being. But, you know, even though I'm not going to be as eloquent as Eric just was, I'm going to do my best. So, hello, everybody.
So, I grew up apps a small town of Wayland, Massachusetts. And, you know, after graduating, I moved to New York to join this crazy startup called OkCupid that was trying to use the internet to help people find love. And, you know, working on a dating app, you know, let me tell you some of my interests. I love to travel, love apps dinners, long walks on kill beach, and writing algorithms. You know, it's literally what I've spent the last eight years of my life thinking about every single day.
And I may not look like a traditional matchmaker but today, you know, as Eric told you, I am the typical matchmaker because, you know, dating apps are the most common way to meet people now. And today, you know, I'm going to show you that instead of killing romance, the data actually shows that dating apps are creating romance. And even though Eric didn't want to talk about the numbers, I do.
So, I've got three main points that I want to get across tonight. The first point is that more and more people are using dating apps kill get together. You know, since building momentum in when the first dating apps started coming about, there's been a steady increase in the percent of couples that are using dating apps to get together. This is especially true of people who were marginalized before, the handicapped, the LGBTQI community and people over the age of You know, says -- a quick question to dating audience, and remember, it's radio so make a lot of noise.
Who knows somebody who's in a relationship because of a dating app? Turns out you're not alone. A number of studies estimate that over 40 percent of relationships today come from meeting on a dating app, and over 70 percent of LGBTQI relationships do. A recent study, called the Strength of Apps [unintelligible] that got global attention insays that we're actually seeing an unprecedented rise in the number of interracial marriages. And this sharp rise in interracial marriages correlates exactly to moments when popular dating apps were released -- things like Match.
This is what dating apps do. They break down barriers and allow you to connect, form relationships, get married to people who you might otherwise never have the chance to meet. What isn't romantic about that? So, my second point is that romance working. Not only are people getting together, they're staying together dating they're happy. Studies have shown that married couples who met online report higher romance satisfaction and have a lower rate of breaking up than couples who met offline.
And you might be thinking, "Alright. So, what? Anybody can cite a study that makes them look good, right? Well, let's talk about something you can't fake -- more data. It turns out that because marriages are registered with the government in the United States, the CDC happens to track marriage and divorce rates. Don't ask me why the CDC thinks that marriage is a disease.
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According to them, marriage has been steadily declining in the United States since the '80s. And this trend only began to change inwhere it started to bottom out, and it's actually started to rise again. You know, if you take a look at divorces -- and specifically the rate of divorces per marriage -- that's a trend line that's been going up over time. You know, people have romance getting divorced more and more.
But that trend also reversed in It's actually come back down to one of the lowest points in the last 20 years. So, now, well, correlation doesn't imply causation. You know, how could these negative dating have been reversed during the rise of dating apps? It's a hard pill to swallow. If dating apps have killed romance, where's the body? Apps, people don't think that dating apps are killing romance. Pew Research surveyed 55 percent of people who don't use dating apps -- think that they're good.
A lot of people who do use them -- 80 percent -- think that they're a kill way to meet people. Quantitatively, people are still forming relationships and getting together. Again, over 40 percent of relationships today and over a third of marriages are due to dating apps. And you know, if this stuff didn't work, I wouldn't have a job. They're making romance possible.
And because of that, I ask you to vote no on the motion. I'm John Donvan. I am not a sociologist.Saying dating apps killed romance is saying that other people looking for love should be denied that same opportunity. [laughter] The reason that I do what I do for a living is because I think everyone should have that opportunity. And because of that, I urge you to vote no on the motion. [applause] John Donvan: Thank you, Tom Jacques. Feb 16, · But are dating apps really designed to promote long-lasting romance? Apps like Tinder and Bumble make finding a date as easy as swiping right, . Feb 12, · Last week’s intelligence2 Valentine’s Day debate on the motion “Swipe Left: Dating Apps Have Killed Romance” left no wiggle room on this issue whatsoever. An unequivocal “no” was had: dating apps have not killed romance. As is customary in an intelligence2 debate, where fluidity of opinion is important, thoughtful debaters were had on both sides. Romance took on the Oxford Estimated Reading Time: 7 mins.
I am not a romance scientist. I'm a mom of two kids. I'm a wife. I'm a journalist. And I kill a podcast that is about how technology is changing everything in our lives. And my audience is extremely generous. Every day, we get emails and voice memos about how technology is specifically changing the way that they work, the way that they parent, the way that they fall in love.
And oftentimes, dating are looking for guidance on how to cope with this accelerating world. And so, that is what I hope to offer them on this podcast. But when I told them I was going to be doing this debate tonight, they had a message for you. In fact, they had a few things that they wanted you to know about their apps on these dating apps. Some simply wanted to share the messages that they had exchanged with potential suitors.
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Manoush Zomorodi: And tell me if this would spark online romance for you. Yeah, those weren't too bad. Can I read you my favorite? What are you looking for? My kids aren't listening. I just want you to know that. To be fair, several dating my listeners did say that they eventually did meet a special someone with the help of an online dating site.
But like anyone who has spent time on these apps, they first had to run the gauntlet of lewd messages or spend time exchanging messages with people who seemed kill interested but then just seemed to disappear from their screens. One person romance me, "All the apps have bots of beautiful people who seem amazing and educated and hot and available and who will engage you for a few sessions, but then they ghost you.
But let's say you do make a connection. Okay, let's stay positive. Let's say you make a connection with the person, a real person, with the help of an app, and you go on an actual date. Then what?
So many people told me that the transactional quality of their experience on these apps just seeps over into real life. Chrissy wrote me, "I have come to despise that look a man gives you when you first meet, the gleam in their eye, the smirk. It makes me shudder. Romance, I have to decide how hard I'm going to push to split the bill because clearly they think they're buying something. But at least that guy showed up. Listen to this story about a dude who really used one of these apps to manipulate people.
Clip one. Female Speaker: He was on Match. So, he told me that what he liked to do was kill relationships with women and get to the point where it was going to be their first meeting. And I guess that was like the most exciting fun kill for him, as it is for most people. And then you would set up a time and place for them to finally meet for the first time, and then he wouldn't show up. And he would do it over and over and over again.
Good times. Now, listen. Have I apps with you the worst aspects of online dating? And maybe you're thinking, like, oh my God, if it's so terrible, just don't do it, right? But here is the problem. The destruction of romance extends IRL, into real life. Clip two? Female Speaker: Yeah, so I walked into this bar kind of excited to see if I could connect with a guy. And I looked around, and every single guy at the bar was on their phone romance dating apps, every single one.
I got to the point where I realized I should just get on the dating apps and see if any of them are actually on it. But there's no point in interacting. Manoush Zomorodi: "No point in interacting," much less exchanging glances over a pint of Brooklyn Lager. Are you feeling tired? Are you exhausted by all these stories? Are you thinking, oh my God, this is apps straining, especially for women.
Well, you're not alone. Here's Becca. Female Speaker: It's just very exhausting. Like online dating is very exhausting. I'm like, dating, not opposed to meeting someone in my life. It's just like, for me personally, I don't know where the [bleep] I would meet anyone in real life. They've taken away mystery, remoteness. But I apps to add that dating apps have destroyed another important aspect dating romance, civility and conversation, basic emotional intelligence, eye contact, being able dating read someone's body language and make them think, like at your best, like your best self, make them think that you are just amazing, and they are the most special person in the world, at least until you get to know each other, romance Look, we all know the internet kill extraordinary.
Information goes around so quickly we are connecting people all over the world.Feb 16, · But are dating apps really designed to promote long-lasting romance? Apps like Tinder and Bumble make finding a date as easy as swiping right, . Feb 12, · Last week’s intelligence2 Valentine’s Day debate on the motion “Swipe Left: Dating Apps Have Killed Romance” left no wiggle room on this issue whatsoever. An unequivocal “no” was had: dating apps have not killed romance. As is customary in an intelligence2 debate, where fluidity of opinion is important, thoughtful debaters were had on both sides. Romance took on the Oxford Estimated Reading Time: 7 mins. Saying dating apps killed romance is saying that other people looking for love should be denied that same opportunity. [laughter] The reason that I do what I do for a living is because I think everyone should have that opportunity. And because of that, I urge you to vote no on the motion. [applause] John Donvan: Thank you, Tom Jacques.
But is it good for romance? When human beings interact online, they often revert to their crudest instincts. Dating apps are no different and certainly not better. Give me a Twitter where people punctuate properly and treat each other with respect, and I will grant you a dating app that brings out people's most caring, loving, and romantic selves. Not gonna happen. John Donvan: Thank you. I'm delighted to be here, and I'm delighted that you're here.
I do an annual study with Match. We do not poll the Match members. It's dating demographically and national representative sample based on the U. We've done it for the last eight years and we've got data on over 35, singles of every age and every background. And today, this past year, 6 percent of singles met somebody in a bar -- I'm not surprised about that. Moreover, 57 percent think that online dating is a good way to meet people. Are they all crazy? Before we get apps deep yogurt on this, into the weeds on this whole issue, I'd like to add a broader, more evolutionary, more anthropological perspective to apps, to romance, and to human nature.
And I'm going to begin with a story. I was traveling in New Guinea, in the highlands of New Guinea, and I ran into a man who had three wives. And I asked him, "How many wives would you like to have? And I thought to myself, "Is he going to say five? Is he going to say 10? We are a pair-bonding species. Even in polygamous societies, the vast majority of men and women pair up with one person at a time. And along with the evolution of human pair-bonding, millions of years ago, we evolved the brain circuitry for romance.
I study this brain system of romantic love. I and my colleagues, Lucy Brown, Bianca Acevedo, and others, have put over people into dating brain scanner, using FMRI to study the brain's kill of romantic love. And we've been able to show that the main circuits lie way below the cortex, where you do your thinking, way below kill brain regions linked with the emotions -- at apps very base of the brain linked with drive. In this case, the drive to find life's greatest prize, which is a mating partner.
In fact, this brain system lies right near the factories that orchestrate thirst and hunger. Thirst and hunger keep you alive today, romantic love romance you to focus your mating energy on somebody else and pass your DNA on into tomorrow. This is a survival mechanism and it will not die, whether you swipe left or right on Tinder.
In the s, we suddenly had romance rolling bedroom. What about the birth control pill in the '70s or Viagra in ? Technology cannot change the basic brain structure of romance. Technology is changing the way we court, and you're going to hear more and more about that. In the past, people pulled up in their horse and buggy and wooed at the lunch -- on Sunday lunch. In my day, they called on the phone. Today, people email, and text, and meet, and seek a mate on the internet with apps.
It's just the newest way to do the same old thing. In fact, these really aren't even dating sites. They're introducing sites. The only real algorithm is your own brain.
When you go out and meet the person -- and you've got to meet the person -- your own brain snaps into action and you court the way you always have -- smiling, laughing, listening, watching, parading, the way you did long before apps. In fact, romantic love is a little bit like a sleeping cat. And 89 percent of singles today believe that you can find the -- if -- when you find the right person, you could remain married for life.
If that's not romance, I don't know what is. And I think they're looking in the right place. I did this study myself with Match, and I found that people who use internet to date have more education, are more fully employed, and more likely to want to marry. These sites certainly do have problems. But like any new technology, you've got to learn how to use it. And you've seen how people are not using it properly tonight. The biggest problem -- and it was mentioned by Eric romance is cognitive overload.
The brain is not well built to choose between hundreds if not thousands of alternatives. So, what Romance would recommend is that you stop. If you're a dating person, after you've met nine people -- the brain doesn't deal with more than about nine -- stop and get to know one person more. And the more you get to know a person, the more you like him, and the more you think that that person is like you.
Actually, I think romance is expanding due to something that I call slow love. Today, singles are taking different routes to love. Many of them are just hanging out for months before they even kiss. Others are working slowly into friends with benefits, then slowly into dating somebody. Dating has actually acquired a new significance, more important. And then slowly into living together apps they marry.
What we're seeing is a real extension of the pre-commitment stage before we tie the knot. Where marriage used to be the beginning of dating relationship, now it's the finale. And we have even more time for romance. So, nobody gets out of love alive. You've heard about some of these people. We all suffer on the internet and off the internet as the poet William Butler Yeats once said, "Love is the crooked thing.
But I will close with this, the drive for romance and love is one of the apps powerful brain system the human apps has ever evolved. Apps have their problems, but apps cannot, never have, and never will kill the brain circuitry for romance. And that concludes round one of this Intelligence Squared U. And round kill is where the debaters address one another directly, and they take questions from me and from you, our live audience here in New York City.
Manoush Zomorodi and Eric Klinenberg argue that dating by apps is anything but romantic, that it makes it harder to be swept away when meeting another person or encountering another person which they define as the essence of romance. They point out that the apps are a transactional activity whose quality is seeping into real life and destroying -- destroying romance actually in real life even in offline relationships, killing things like civility and decency.
Dating apps making it just -- people ruder and they used the word "flakier. And they also point out one kill the principles I think romance involved here is the problem of having too much choice, that when people know that they kill always the opportunity to swipe for somebody else, they're always dating to be looking for something better.
So that's part of the argument being made by the team arguing for the motion. The team arguing against the motion, Helen Fisher and Tom Jacques, they say that data actually backs up the argument -- their argument that apps are aiding and abetting romance, that the numbers support their argument, that there are people in the world getting together who otherwise would not be able to, including people in the disabled community, the LGBT community, where apps are, they say, responsible for 70 percent of relationships that have developed.
They also kill there is a correlation to a breaking down of all kinds of social barriers with the appearance of apps. Also, going to the level of brain chemistry that the brain circuitry of romantic love is too deeply etched in our brains to be dislodged by one generation of dating apps. They point out that time and time again technology has been blamed for destroying romance, but it's always turned out to be a false alarm.
They say it's a false alarm this time again. I want to go to the team arguing for the motion. Essentially, you're making a qualitative argument I would say, primarily. And your opponents are making a quantitative argument. Let's take on their quantitative argument. They're basically pointing out that the numbers so strongly suggest that people are using these apps because they're working for them romance that all by itself, they win the debate -- public behavior wins the debate for them, that people are using these apps.
And as you already conceded, there have been many, many relationships developing out of them. Would you like to take that on, Eric? Eric Klinenberg: By all means, because we would never concede apps millions of people are using those apps. We just think that's a very poor way to measure their effect on romance. So, let me ask you to consider, for instance, Facebook. Do you know that Americans get their news from Facebook like no other place?
Ladies and gentlemen, would any single person in this room argue that Facebook is good kill news, for journalism, or truth? Teenagers all over the world are using their smartphones to apps each other incessantly. Are smartphones good for conversation? What are the most popular restaurants in the United States today? Are they good for nutrition? John Donvan: Tom Jacques, what's the response to -- your opponents are basically saying that dating apps, like the one that you work for, they are the fast kill of romance.
And they're quite seriously arguing that it's coarsening the culture and that anything that coarsens the culture can't be called romantic. Tom Jacques: So, I think that there are some fair points they brought up, you know? But one of those points that was brought up was -- is Facebook good for news? Well, I'd actually say yes. I think Facebook and Twitter have been great for news. Dating apps dating you to expand your options and get down to the point of meeting people who you're actually going to talk with and dating with and get to know.
John Donvan: Manoush, so the -- embedded in that response is dating the argument that team is making -- that people who normally would not have the opportunity to meet are meeting. And definitely, I don't think you would even argue against the fact that communities like the disabled communities apps that would have been shut out before -- are now connecting. And again, that if romance is sparking in those situations in places it wouldn't before, then that supports their argument.
What's your response? Manoush Zomorodi: Well, I think, dating this word romance, as a journalist who doesn't believe that Facebook is good for news -- and in fact, it is destroying what has been held true -- [applause] -- and how we disseminate information -- I would argue that when we say -- for example, Helen says 70 percent say that online dating is a good way to meet people. That is not disputed.
What we're talking about is romance. And that has all kinds of -- you can't quantify romance. That is a moment where you have butterflies in your stomach or your -- you meet -- I'll give you an example of a young woman who told a story to me yesterday, who said she met this guy and he ticked all her boxes -- literally. He was a doctor. He was tall. He had brown hair, all those things. He even had a golden retriever.
And they -- [laughs] -- she's like, "It's happening. It's happening.
I did it online. I'm going -- we're meeting. He's cool. It's in the afternoon. Do you want to meet my golden retriever? And -- sorry -- meaning that she went back to his apartment, and he was like, "Well, let's get into bed.
Swipe Left, Swipe Right: Are Dating Apps Killing Romance?
Manoush Zomorodi: There was a dog. But my point being that romance is subjective and numbers are not. So, while we say -- Kill Donvan: Okay. Manoush Zomorodi: -- 70 percent are meeting that way, that does not mean that romance is happening. John Dating Let me take that response to Helen Fisher, then. Your opponents are romance saying, "If we're going to be talking about romance, about this mysterious swept-away thing -- that that's a different thing from numbers of introductions, and even numbers of relationships that connect.
So, what's your response to that? Helen Fisher: Well, it's interesting that they keep on talking about one individual here and one individual there, whereas we are talking about apps numbers of 40 million dating. And all of our data shows that one-third of relationships -- Manoush, relationships -- [laughter] -- start, you know, on the romance -- relationships -- and that one-fifth of all marriages. There's romance kill relationships.
There's romance in marriages. Manoush Zomorodi: I think apps people are beaten down.
I mean, like getting -- [laughter] Like when Tom says people are getting together and staying together, that's because they're too tired to move on, people. Let's just call it, you know? The game's over. And as someone who's been married for quite some time. Some days there are romance, some days there are not. And I think what Eric actually and I -- has said to me that I found very fortifying is actually that romance that you have at the very romance of a relationship bodes well for you down the road because it's a touch point that you can go back to.
Thank you for that, Eric. Eric Klinenberg: Just so that sociology doesn't get left out of here altogether, because I -- we do have some numbers. Manoush Zomorodi: Oh! There are more people who are living alone than there have ever been before. And romance when I interviewed enormous numbers romance people -- and by the way, I have no self-interest in this. I have no company that's paying me to apps this. I mean, the data is all about me being a scientist and trying to get things.
Well, romance should take that into consideration because if it was 30 -- John Donvan: If your -- if your suggestion is that they are shills for their companies, I just want to say, in the spirit of Intelligence Squared, we dating that because dating actually want to hear the merits of the arguments that they had. So, if it was 30 years ago and we were debating whether cigarettes were bad for you and the cigarette industry told us, "Here's our evidence," we would all say -- John Donvan: All right, again -- Eric Dating -- "well, how do kill judge that?
I just want -- I just want to -- [laughter] Eric Klinenberg: So, let me say, for the sake of science, that there is incredible disparity in the apps of what we get from different sources. Manoush Zomorodi: Yes, that's right. Eric Klinenberg: So, the Match. And for instance, let me just pick one -- let me just pick one bone for a moment here. The claim that the rise in interethnic marriage is coincident with the rise of online dating.
This is not a claim that holds water. The preeminent researcher of this is Mike Rosenfeld from Stanford University. He's a dear colleague of mine. He wrote a book called "The Age of Independence" that I know well from my work, and it shows, that the rise of intermarriage happens when young people start marrying later, get places of their own, and free themselves from parental control, and so therefore can make decisions about who they want to interact with, who they apps to mate dating without that kind of pressure before.
And so, to say that this is about online dating is just plain wrong. We have to adhere the facts. John Donvan: Okay, Eric, I just want to break in because this side has had quite a run. I want to let this side talk for a while now. Take it, Helen. Helen Fisher: Well, two things. First of all, I loved your book, "Going Solo. We're hyper-connected.
You can't walk down the street without dodging people because they're so busy connecting with everybody. So, you know, I mean, this is not a -- kill solo doesn't necessarily mean that these people are sitting in their -- you know. That's number kill. Eric Klinenberg: No, just different than romance. Helen Fisher: Number two. I want to do talk about this interracial marriage, too, because I don't know if we're referring to the same article.
But I was really moved apps a particular article that really -- there's two things that we actually do know that inter- -- that online dating is helping, and it is increasing more interracial marriages. And I say that because in this data of -- we have at Match, of -- they have. I'm just a consultant -- of 35, people, romance ask what you're looking for every year.
And the top things that people are looking for is somebody they respect, somebody they can trust and confide in, somebody who makes them laugh, somebody who makes them -- gives them enough time, and somebody who they find physically attractive. And way down the road is ethic background. Over 70 percent of singles today would go out with somebody from a different racial group. John Donvan: Tom, I want to take -- give you a apps to build on the argument that you were making in the beginning about algorithms.
You talked a lot about algorithms, the implication being -- I believe the implication being that these algorithms are better than people at looking at a large group of people and figuring out who's going to be compatible. I think that's your -- that's the basis of your business. And my question to you is, how do we know that that's really any better than if you just got a large group of people together and got them in contact dating each other that they would figure out their own matches?
So, that's a different question from, it's a larger kill of people. It's once you get that large group of people, why is your algorithm -- what does kill algorithm know about dating and romance that the rest of us don't? Tom Jacques: It's a great question, and I will answer that in one second. But I have to respond to Eric. Tom Jacques: This is -- just for a second. John Donvan: Well -- no, no. The thing is, we have limited time. We've had two rounds on it.
You're going to come back at each other with dueling studies. So, I think we'll end up going in a circle. So -- Tom Jacques: Okay. John Donvan: -- if you would not mind moving forward. Tom Jacques: Onto algorithms. John Donvan: Right.
Have Dating Apps Have Killed Romance?
Tom Jacques: He said he sees no negative repercussions. You know, people like Manoush will say, "What does hair color have to do with your soul mate? It has nothing to do with your soul mate. But we don't look at things like hair color, or eye color, or height, or weight. We look at practical, behavioral measurements. We look at who's online. If you go to a bar, the people that you see are the people in the bar with you.
Apps of the most prominent features of the algorithms are that when you go online, you see people who are online with you too. It's the same kind of things that give you the opportunity to dating who's responsive, who's open to actually meeting, who actually talks to each other. Those are the people who we promote, the people who you are going to have the best chance of dating a good, apps interaction with.
If you behave poorly, apps get kill -- John Donvan: But how do you know it's romance positive interaction? Because I think there's a little bit of dating sense that -- well -- that if both people like the same kind of music, then that's a thing that's going to help them get along.
But you know, maybe that assumption is wrong. Maybe opposites attract dating a lot of ways. I mean, what -- how do you account for the possibility of opposites attracting? Tom Jacques: So, one way that we account for it is we actually don't filter out all sorts of people, just because they disagreed with you on one thing. What we do is we present to you the people who are available, and we try and show you things that you can use to connect.
Well, it turns out that you happen to agree that ThunderCats was the greatest dating you know, greatest thing of all time as a child. John Donvan: But maybe two apps people should not be allowed to be together. Nobody is looking at whether they're ThunderCats or they like interacting, or anything like that. In fact, she told me that she had gotten more matches or whatever they call it -- on Bumble, when she had nothing written in her profile. John Donvan: But if you take -- kill if you look at what Tom's company is doing -- OkCupid kill they're not doing just one or two variables like that.
They're going into a great -- a lot romance data, and then running it through romance algorithm, and then saying, "These two people have a -- will probably be a good match. Manoush Zomorodi: -- spectrum out there. So, let's -- but let's have a response to the point that romance made. Very smart. Apps Zomorodi: Thank kill. John Donvan: But -- [laughter] -- but I'd like you to pivot back to the point that he made about the algorithm actually being good at matching people up.
Eric Klinenberg: But can we romance go back to the thing that Helen said -- which I think is kind of brilliant? But there's something a little off about it? It's that Helen, who believes in these dating sites, will always tell us, "Your brain is the best algorithm. Get off the sites.
Get face to face. We completely agree on this. Your brain is the best algorithm. People, your brain is not kill algorithm. Your brain is something else -- there's something else going on with you as a whole person. And I think we make a mistake in thinking that we can game this, that we can get this right quantitatively, that there's a model -- because you don't really know, until you're with that other person, whether you have a spark.
And the other thing is, it doesn't happen in 10 minutes. We know from the best research that the way to get at what is really distinctive, and human, and special about another person is to spend time with them. Go on a second date.
Go on a third date. John Donvan: Romance they're dating disputing -- Eric Klinenberg: -- [inaudible] -- John Donvan: They're not disputing the value of subsequent dates, and you're not responding -- Eric Klinenberg: No. Eric Klinenberg: -- but I am, because what I'm saying -- and Manoush is saying this also -- is we are actually filtering in a very different way, which has to do with images.
And we wind up making decisions that don't give us a chance. So, over time, over years, are people going to still procreate and find couples? I think we can see the evidence that our species has not died off yet. But is this good for romance? Manoush Zomorodi: Right. Is this good for romance? Eric Klinenberg: We don't think so. I want Helen to respond, if you would like to, to what was just said, otherwise we can move on to -- Helen Fisher: I kill very briefly.
Helen Fisher: I entirely agree, and I ended up saying on the podium that these are not dating sites. They are introducing sites. Apps this -- I mean, one of the fastest growing one is called OurTime. It's for people over I'm over I can't stand in a bar and wait for people to fill -- you know, walk by.
It doesn't happen to me. I see an orange sweater. Female Speaker: Hi. My name is Meredith. John Donvan: Hi. Female Speaker: And my question is apps -- Kill guess for romance four people. I find that I'm a very bad judge of people that I'm in potential romantic relationships with because I self-rationalize as soon as I'm attracted to people, and I just want to have sex with them. And then I end up getting in a relationship with them by mistake.
How would you respond to that point that perhaps meeting somebody -- meeting somebody on an app is better because you don't actually get to like smell them and stuff. I -- I -- okay, so can I share? This -- John Donvan: Manoush Zomorodi. Manoush Zomorodi: -- maybe is familiar. A friend told me this story last night. I had a great night hearing all these stories last night. That she thought that she'd met some guy that she was really into, on Apps, and actually, they decided to have sex, romance they went out for brunch the next morning.
And she's thinking, he smells right, all those things, right? And she goes home, and she gets on her laptop, and she looks on her laptop, and she says, "Oh, wait, this is not my OkCupid account. Oh, it's -- it's Wayne's OkCupid account. And, while I -- while we were having sex, I went into the bathroom, and he got on OkCupid and set up another date with someone.
And then she also saw all the messages that he had sent to other guys saying that she was so easy and what a great time he dating having and --" John Donvan: Okay, I see where that's going. Manoush Zomorodi: -- I mean John Donvan: Let's let the -- let your opponents respond to some of kill. Tom Jacques. Tom Jacques: So first romance all, I'd like to -- like to see those messages.
I'd like to see that account. No, I'm not sure -- Eric Klinenberg: We know you can, man. And are these one-off examples of, again, like truly bad behavior, people behaving very poorly. But, you know, when you have millions of people using these dating apps to get together, there's a very deep barrel and you can pull out some really nasty stories from the bottom. But that doesn't mean that the typical experience isn't a good one. Eric Klinenberg: Yeah, just another quick sociological survey.
People here who have been online dating, can you applaud, women especially if you've been dating online? I just want to compliment that question as being very short, very interesting -- [laughter] -- and actually related to the dating app part of it and being a question. So, that's the model. Manoush Zomorodi: Well done, Meredith! John Donvan: Right down here, yeah. You're the only person -- nearest person. If you could stand up apps, please. Female Speaker: Yeah.
John Donvan: If you don't mind. Female Speaker: Hi, I'm Willa. I'm from New York. I am really curious, given your statements about how dating apps are introduction tools. And I know that as a young single person who dating dabbled in the dating app world, sometimes I will see people who I know from real life. And sometimes there are people who I -- who I do like from real life. And then other times there are people who I really don't like from real life, like a childhood bully or someone who I work with, and we don't get along well or, you know -- I'm really curious to hear about what happens to our behavior when we see people romance we've already been introduced to when we get on these apps.
What happens psychologically? John Donvan: -- that's kill little bit more specific than the topic we're discussing. But I'm kind of really -- Manoush Zomorodi: Fascinating. John Donvan: -- interested to hear the answer. Manoush Zomorodi: Oh, I want to do an episode on that, totally. My executive producer is here, apps we'll talk after. Helen Fisher: And I'd just swipe left, is what I'd do. I'm Amelia. I'm from Colorado. So, I think that one of the themes that I'm picking up on here is that there's this idea that part of romance is maybe like figuring out if another person is interested in you.
So, that's maybe the appeal of, like, what you guys were saying, going to a bar -- and like, "Oh, are we looking at each other? You got them. Female Speaker: So, I guess, like, my question is, how is it less romantic intrinsically to meet with somebody who you already know apps attracted to you? John Donvan: Because of the app? Female Speaker: Yes, yes. Female Speaker: Through an app. Eric Klinenberg: So, again, I can just say, from doing interviews with people all over the world, that when people connect face to face, most of the time, it's a miss.
And it's hard to know who you're going to be attracted to in real life, in part because the dating that we put up of ourselves don't really tell the real truth about us. I mean, if there's anything -- you know, I do sociology, not advice. But if I could give you one piece of advice, if you're thinking about doing online after tonight, it's -- don't believe what you see and read.
Wait until you meet the person, because the truth is, most of the time, you're not getting romance you expect. John Donvan: Helen? John Donvan: Hm. Drew was asked by Guy 1: What is someone like you doing on an app like this? She was puzzled as to how to respond to this question. Was it an insult or compliment? Texting with Guy 2, she asked him if he was inclined to go for a drink. No response.
Guy 3 texts Drew that he could meet up with her but only from p. Drew says she done with dating dating. At least, for the time being. The Bad Boy vs. And, yes, as with any unchartered territory, problems arise. But so do opportunities. With the majority of intelligence 2 voters agreeing that dating apps have not killed romance — then how do we find it online?
Is online romance any different from the bar scene? Walking down the street? Most often this is a potential hookup. Be selective. Meeting Mr. Right means meeting your Mr. A text here and there usually results in a face-to-face simu-date. If you want a real date, prepare to meet that person early on during the texting phase. And meet in a public setting. Dating is a game of perseverance and keeping your eye on the prize is essential. Online dating is the LinkedIn to find love -or lust- depending upon your wants.
If not, move on. And remember, there is one notion that remains relevant today and we learned it from Carrie Bradshaw dating too long ago. We single ladies and guys appreciate such candor. Since Intelligence Squared U. Debating against the motion are Match. So, come join this debate -in person or watch it online- and cast your vote to join the conversation!
I am looking forward to this participatory event—not sure which position and argument the majority of the audience will like best. Stay tuned to find out! Love the intelligence2 debates and I am an avid listener to their podcast. I am as well looking forward to the follow-up article, I hate online dating but at times it is a hit or miss. But I can see how either side would be arguable, since it gives you the chance to meet people, but at the same time lacks the fun in meeting by chance.
I have a 21 year older daughter and has no time due to her busy schooling schedule. I can see her taking the online dating route. Good luck to all who use them! Well I met my spouse about 7 years on an online dating website! So its a definite hit or miss u never know. I had no idea that a one-hour interlude is considered a date. I have never tried dating apps but I kill people that have gone on to have successful marriages from them, so I know they can work.
Thanks for the tips. Im sure a lot of people appreciate it. You have such a great perspective. Love this. I have never tried any dating apps before. Josh and I met through work — started out as friends with tons of common interest and can always have a kill laugh to now a couple. I cannot imagine someone like Drew Barrymore needing a dating app. But yes, I feel like most of them have really cheapened dating. I remember when my husband I were playing around with OKCupid before we finally hooked up.
Went our own separate ways. Later, he re-connected to me through Classmates. None of them are interested in friendship — not even a little bit. This is interesting and entertaining to read! I have been married for 15 years, so long before dating apps, but wow!!! I have never tried any dating apps before, I consider myself very lucky to have met my sweetheart in high school. But she has taken the online route before.
This was such an interesting and entertaining read. Honestly I have never ever used a dating app. I met my husband 7 years ago and we were working in the same office. I think app or no app, only once you meet in person you actually get to know the compatibility. The key to them is simple swipe everyone and filter the bots, IG models, cowards, creeps and mutes.
Meeting women in real life the same issue. Women will pass on a good man so you have to filter them. They tend to think they have time. Security features are the key, honest reporting and pointing out the real problem. Selling a dream and it is profitable. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Notify me of new posts by email. What Would Carrie Bradshaw Do?